NIH director Francis Collins,winner of the 2020Templeton Prize, answer questions about God, cost-free will, evil, altruismand his Christian faithin a 2006 interview

When I speak to my students aboutthe tempestuous relationship in between science and also religion, I prefer to bring up the case of Francis Collins. Early in his career, Collins was a successful gene-hunter, who aided identify genes linked with cystic fibrosis and other disorders. The went on to come to be one the the world’s most powerful scientists. Due to the fact that 2009, he has actually directed the national Institutes the Health, which this year has actually a spending plan of end $40 billion. Before that he oversaw the human Genome Project, among history’s best research projects. Collins to be an atheist until 1978, as soon as he underwent a conversion suffer while long walking in the mountains and became a devout Christian. In his 2006 bestselling bookThe Language the God, Collins declares that he sees no incompatibility in between science and religion. “The God of the bible is also the God the the genome,” that wrote. “He can be venerated in the cathedral or in the laboratory.” Collins just won the$1.3 million Templeton Prize, produced in 1972 to encourage reconciliation the science and spirituality. (See my short articles on the Templeton Foundationhereandhere). This news gives me one excuse to post an interview I lugged out v Collins forNational Geographicin 2006, a time whenRichard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and also others were vigorously attacking religion. Listed below is an edited transcript of my conversation v Collins, which took ar in Washington, D.C. I chosen Collins, who I uncovered to be how amazing unassuming for a man of such high stature. Yet I was disturbed by our final exchanges, in which he revealed a fatalistic outlook ~ above humanity’s future. Collins, the seems, haslots of belief in God however not lot in humanity. – man Horgan

Horgan:How does it feel to be in ~ the white-hot center of the existing debate in between science and also religion?

Collins:This increasing polarization between extremists top top both ends of the atheism and belief spectrum has actually been heartbreaking come me. If my suggestion that over there is a harmonious middle ground puts me in ~ the white-hot facility of debate--Hooray! It’s probably a little bit overdue.

You are watching: How to prove god is real to an atheist

Horgan:The risk in trying come appeal to people on both political parties of a polarized debate is--

Collins:Bombs thrown at you indigenous both directions!

Horgan:Has that happened?

Collins: The majority have comment in an extremely encouraging ways. Yet some the my scientific colleagues argue the it’s totally inappropriate because that a scientist come write around religion, and we currently have too much confidence in publicly life in this country. And then I gain someverystrongly worded message from fundamentalists who feel that ns have compromised the literal translate of Genesis 1 and call me a false prophet. I’m diluting the truth and also doing damages to the faith.

Horgan:Why carry out you think the debate has end up being so polarized?

Collins:It start with an extreme articulation of a approach on one side of the issue and also that then results in a response that is also a little bit too extreme, and also the entirety thing escalates. Every action demands one equal and opposite reaction. This is just one of Newton’s laws playing out in an unfortunate public scenario.

Horgan:I should admit that I’ve become much more concerned lately around the harmful impacts of religion since of spiritual terrorism prefer 9/11 and the growing power of the spiritual right in the united States.

Collins:What belief hasnotbeen supplied by demagogues as a society over somebody’s head? even if it is it was the Inquisition or the campaigns on the one hand or the civilization Trade facility on the other? yet we shouldn’t judge the pure truths of confidence by the way they are applied any much more than we need to judge the pure fact of love by an abusive marriage. Us as kids of God have actually been provided by God this understanding of right and wrong, this “Moral Law,” i beg your pardon I watch as a an especially compelling signpost come His existence. However we additionally have this thing called complimentary will i beg your pardon we practice all the moment to break that law. We shouldn’t blame belief for the ways human being distort it and misuse it.

Horgan:Isn’t the trouble when religious beliefs say,Thisis the only way to truth? Isn’t that what turns religious faith from something beautiful right into something intolerant and hateful?

Collins:There is a sad fact there. Ns think we Christians have actually been means too prepared to specify ourselves as members of an exclusive club. I uncovered truth, I uncovered joy, I uncovered peace in that particular conclusion, but I am no in any means suggesting the that is the conclusion everybody else need to find. To have anyone say, “My fact is purer 보다 yours,” the is both inconsistent v what I check out in the human of Christ andincrediblyoff-putting. And quick to begin arguments and also fights and also even wars! Look at the story of the great Samaritan, i m sorry is a parable native Jesus himself. Jews would certainly have considered the Samaritan to it is in a heretic, and yet plainly Christ’s article is:Thatis the person who walk right and also was justified in God’s eyes.

Horgan:How can you, as a scientist who looks for herbal explanations of things and also demands evidence, likewise believe in miracles, choose the resurrection?

Collins:My an initial struggle was to think in God. No a pantheist God who is completely enclosed in ~ nature, or a Deist God who began the entirety thing and then simply lost interest, however a superordinary God who is interested in what is continue in our world and also might in ~ times choose to intervene. My 2nd struggle to be to think that Christ was magnificent as He asserted to be. As quickly as I acquired there, the idea the He could rise from the dead became a non-problem. Ns don’t have a trouble with the concept that miracles could occasionally occur at moment ofgreatsignificance where there is a post being transmitted to united state by God Almighty. Yet as a scientist I set my criter for miracles an extremely high. And also I don’t think we should try to convince agnostics or atheists about the fact of confidence with claims around miracles the they can conveniently poke holes in.

Horgan:The trouble I have actually with miracles is not just that they violate what scientific research tells us about how the human being works. They additionally make God seem as well capricious. For example, many people believe that if they pray hard sufficient God will intercede to heal them or a love one. However does that typical that every those that don’t get far better aren’t worthy?

Collins:In my very own experience as a physician, I have not checked out a miraculous healing, and also I don’t suppose to check out one. Also, prayer because that me is not a method to manipulate God into doing what we want Him come do. Prayer because that me is much more a sense of trying to gain into fellowship through God. I’m trying to figure out what I must be doing quite than informing Almighty God whatHeshould it is in doing. Look in ~ the Lord’s Prayer. It says, “Thywill it is in done.” that wasn’t, “Our father who room in Heaven, please gain me a parking space.”

Horgan:Many world have a tough time believing in God due to the fact that of the trouble of evil. If God loves us, why is life filled through so much suffering?

Collins:That isthemost basic question that all seekers have to wrestle with. First of all, if our ultimate score is to grow, learn, uncover things around ourselves and also things about God, then regrettably a life of ease is more than likely not the way to get there. I understand I have actually learned very tiny about myself or God when everything is going well. Also, a many the pain and also suffering in the civilization we can not lay in ~ God’s feet. God provided us totally free will, and we may choose to practice it in ways that end up hurting other people.

Horgan:The physicist Steven Weinberg, that is one atheist, has written about this topic. He asks why 6 million Jews, consisting of his relatives, had actually to die in the Holocaust so that the Nazis can exercise their totally free will.

Collins:If God had actually to interference miraculously every time among us determined to do something evil, it would certainly be a very strange, chaotic, unpredictable world. Free will leader to human being doing terrible things to every other. Innocent human being die as a result. Girlfriend can’t blame anyone other than the evildoers for that. For this reason that’s not God’s fault. The harder concern is when suffering appears to have come around through no human ill action. A son with cancer, a organic disaster, a tornado or tsunami. Why would God not stop those things from happening?

Horgan:Some theologians, such as Charles Hartshorne, have suggested that maybe God isn’t completely in manage of His creation. The poet Annie Dillard expresses this idea in her phrase “God the semi-competent.”

Collins:That’s delightful--and most likely blasphemous! An alternate is the id of God being exterior of nature and of time and having a perspective of our blink-of-an-eye visibility that go both far ago and much forward. In part admittedly metaphysical way, that permits me to say that the meaning of suffering might not always be noticeable to me. There deserve to be reasons for disastrous things keep going that i cannot know.

Horgan:I think you’re an agnostic.


Horgan:You speak that, to a specific extent, God’s means are inscrutable. The sounds choose agnosticism.

Collins:I’m agnostic about God’s ways. I’m not agnostic around God Himself. Cutting board Huxley defined agnosticism as not discovering whether God exist or not. I’m a believer! I have actually doubts. Together I quote Paul Tillich: “Doubt is no the the opposite of faith. It’s a component of faith.” however my basic stance is that God is real, God is true.

Horgan:I’m one agnostic, and I was bothered when in your book you referred to as agnosticism a “copout.” Agnosticism doesn’t typical you’re lazy or don’t care. It means you aren’t satisfied with any kind of answers because that what after all are ultimate mysteries.

Collins:That was a putdown that need to not apply to earnest agnostics who have taken into consideration the evidence and also still don’t find an answer. Ns was reaction to the agnosticism I watch in the clinical community, which has not been came down on by a mindful examination the the evidence. Ns went v a phase as soon as I to be a casual agnostic, and also I am probably too quick to assume the others have actually no more depth 보다 I did.

Horgan:Free will certainly is a really important principle to me, as it is come you. It’s the basis because that our morality and search because that meaning. Don’t you concern that scientific research in general and also genetics in particular—and your work as head the the Genome Project--are undermining id in cost-free will?

Collins:You’re talking around genetic determinism, which suggests that we are helpless marionettes being managed by strings make of double helices. The is so far away from what we recognize scientifically! Heredity does have an affect not only over medical risks but also over specific behaviors and personality traits. But look at identical twins, who have exactly the very same DNA but often don’t law alike or think alike. They present the importance of learning and also experience--and cost-free will. Ns think us all, whether we are religious or not, identify that cost-free will is a reality. There room some fringe aspects that say, “No, it’s every an illusion, we’re just pawns in some computer system model.” however I don’t think that carries you an extremely far.

Horgan:What do you think the Darwinian explanations that altruism, or what friend callagape, completely selfless love and also compassion for someone not straight related to you?

Collins:It’s been a small of a just-so story so far. Plenty of would argue the altruism has been supported by evolution because it helps the team survive. Yet some human being sacrifically give of us to those who are outside their group and also with who they have absolutely nothing in common. Like mommy Teresa, Oscar Schindler, plenty of others. The is the the aristocracy of humankind in the purist form. That doesn’t seem choose it can be described by a Darwinian model, yet I’m not hanging my confidence on this.

Horgan:If only selflessness were more common.

Collins:Well, there you get free will again. It it s okay in the way.

Horgan:What do you think about the ar of neurotheology, i beg your pardon attempts to identify the neural basis of spiritual experiences?

Collins:I think it’s fascinating however not particularly surprising. We human beings are flesh and blood. So that wouldn’t problem me--if ns were to have some mystical endure myself--to discover that my temporal lobe to be lit up. I’d say, “Wow! That’s okay!” that doesn’t median that this doesn’t have genuine spiritual significance. Those that come in ~ this problem with the presumption that there is nothing outside the natural world will look at this data and also say, “Ya see?” whereas those that come with the presumption that we room spiritual creatures will certainly go, “Cool! there is a organic correlate come this mystical experience! How around that!” ns think our spirituality nature is important God-given, and also may no be totally limited by organic descriptors.

Horgan:What if this research study leads to drugs or devices for artificially inducing spiritual experiences? would you think about those experience to it is in authentic? You probably heard about the recent report from Johns Hopkins the the psychedelic medicine psilocybin motivated spiritual experiences.

Collins:Yes. If you room talking about the ingestion of an exogenous psychosis substance or some type of brain-stimulating contraption, that would smack of no being one authentic, justifiable, trust-worthy experience. So that would certainly be a boundary ns would desire to establish between the authentic and the counterfeit.

Horgan:Some scientists have predicted that genetic engineering may provide us superhuman intelligence and also greatly prolonged life spans, and also possibly even immortality. We can even technician our brains so that us don’t are afraid pain or grief anymore. This are possible long-term aftermath of the human being Genome Project and other present of research. If these points happen, what carry out you think would certainly be the after-effects for spiritual traditions?

Collins:That outcome would trouble me. Yet we’re so much away indigenous that truth that it’s hard to invest a many time worrying about it as soon as you think about all the truly benevolent things we can do in the near term. If you obtain too hung up on the hypotheticals that what night happen in the next several hundreds years, climate you become paralyzed and also you fail come live up to the methods to reach the end and assist people now. That appears to be the many unethical stance we could take.

Horgan:I’m really asking, Does faith requires suffering? could we reduce suffering come the point where we simply won’t require religion?

Collins:In spite of the reality that we have accomplished all of this wonderful medical advancements and made it feasible to live longer and also eradicate diseases, us will more than likely still figure out means to argue with each other and sometimes to kill each other, out of our self-righteousness and our decision that we have to be top top top. For this reason the fatality rate will continue to it is in one per human being by one way or another. We may know a lot around biology, us may recognize a lot about how to prevent illness, and also we may understand the life span. But I don’t think we will figure out exactly how to stop people from doing bad things to every other. The will always be ours greatest and most distressing experience right here on this planet, and also that will make us lengthy the most, perhaps, because that something more.

See more: How To Open Wine Bottle Without Cork Opener, 5 Easy Ways To Open Wine Without A Corkscrew

Further Reading:

In Defense of Disbelief: an Anti-Creed

Can Faith and Science Coexist?

Richard Dawkins offers Advice for Donald Trump, and also Other Wisdom

What need to We perform With ours Visions of Heaven and also Hell?

Mind-Body Problems(free virtual book, also available asKindle e-bookandpaperback).